The Success Nuggets

Success Nuggets #43 - Toby Goodman The Drummer Who Became a Podcast Business Coach

• David Abel • Season 3 • Episode 2

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Before Toby Goodman was a bestselling author and podcast strategist, he was a touring musician—performing at the Royal Albert Hall with rock legends. And the lesson he took from music?

✅ The best don’t just play—they listen.
✅ Great business isn’t about being loud—it’s about knowing when to shine.
✅ Success comes from building real connections, not chasing likes.

Now, Toby helps lawyers, doctors, and high-level professionals use podcasting as a tool—not for vanity metrics, but for real growth and strategic networking.

Nugget of the day “   Business, like music, is all about rhythm—know when to lead, when to listen, and when to shine " 

With thanks to One Golden Nugget and Maxwell Preece for editing, support and artwork

Speaker 2:

Amazing, amazing wisdom, entrepreneurs, success, success around the world.

Speaker 1:

This is the Success Nuggets podcast. Have you ever wondered what you could learn and how inspired you'd be if you asked incredible people from around the world about the patterns that drive progress? Get ready to dive into a world of insights and inspiration, of insights and inspiration. This is the Success Nuggets Podcast, with the founder of the Digital Lightbulb and your host, david.

Speaker 2:

Abel, thank you, thank you. My next guest is a prominent figure in the podcasting industry known for his expertise in using podcasts as a business growth tool Toby Goodman. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, sir. Okay, so tell the audience about your 20-something year career in music, how you got into it and why you said yes to so many excellent opportunities.

Speaker 3:

I was into music as a kid, for the whole of my life, I was obsessed with it. I played drums. Obsessed with playing the drums. I was not particularly interested in anything else and girls. And I managed to get to university and studied jazz, which was not necessarily what I love, love, loved, but I liked it a lot and there was at the time no real credible kind of pop music education course. So I you know, it's just a way to carry on staying in education, get better at what I did. And I went to uni and did jazz.

Speaker 3:

After a year, in the summer holidays I got a phone call from some random person who met me somewhere and she said can you go to Blackpool to do a summer season? It was 10 weeks and it was £600 a week and at the time that was a lot of money 18. And I'd been doing dodgy gigs £100 here or there, maybe £50 or maybe nothing in a terrible bowl of pasta, and so to be offered £600 a week, I thought, yes, please, and I put my stuff in the car and I drove north of Luton for the first time in my life, I think. I mean I never knew the UK and I drove up in my terrible car and the gig was at a place called the blackpool opera house, which was actually the biggest theater in the country. It's got like 3 000 seats. It's insane, this place, and I thought I've bitten off more than I can chew here. But there's a long old story around that gig. But it was an amazing band and the musical director liked me and I was young. Everyone else was in their 30s, 40s, 50s I'm this really green behind the ears guy and I managed to scrape through and I got to the end of it and about the week before it ended, after 10 weeks, the guy said oh, I've got a tour, someone's just left, you want to do it? And I basically just never went back to uni. I never went back and so I ended up touring around a lot of the UK doing like loads of UK theatre work and then a load of European stuff, and then, because of the kind of stuff I was doing, it was a lot of disco artists from America and pop and 80s artists. There was a guy that I worked for and with for a long time called Kid Creole of Kid Creole and the Coconuts and he ended up bringing me to Europe and doing his gig a lot. And that was it. I had enough money to put a deposit down on a little flat just north of London and that was me. I was done. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't go back.

Speaker 3:

I was already working and by the time I was 29, I was playing. I remember I was playing a gig in the Royal Albert Hall for Bill Wyman, who's a bass player in the Stones and, like everyone, loads of famous people, and I'm playing this band and it's amazing, and my mum's there and she finally recognises that I might've done a good thing. And there's a guy playing bass for another band who used to teach me music at college and he says would you like to come and teach for us? And at the time my tour was just ending and we knew we wanted to start a family. And so I ended up going back to uni 10 years later, basically, and teaching and handing out degrees without a degree. So I don't know what that says to you about music, the value of a music degree, but I did that for a few years. Three or four years.

Speaker 3:

I had a family, started a family, got married, stayed in London and I used that as a bit of a stepping stone to get into business and marketing.

Speaker 3:

And that was initially a band. You know I was working for other people but we started a party band and that party band would go all around London but then all around the world to do these gigs for the rich and famous and wealthy. That's where I started to learn business and I started to realize that I didn't need to necessarily always have to wait for the phone, and the nature of the instrument with drums is you have to wait for someone else to get a job before you get a job. I think if maybe you're a piano player or you're a guitar player, you can kind of go out and you could do a restaurant gig or something solo. But with a drummer you have to wait for a singer or a piano player or a guitar player to get a gig. So you're kind of at the mercy of how they're doing with their network. I felt like I needed to escape and so that is a very truncated music story. I still play, still go out, but not as much because I do the school.

Speaker 2:

That is such a wonderful story and there's a good sort of business thread lessons in there as well about waiting for the phone to ring. But you really picked up on business because you became a bestselling author. You're a podcast business coach, you're a speaker advisor. You've created many profitable models. How have you managed to be so successful there? What have you learned from the drums specifically?

Speaker 3:

there and what have you learned from the drums specifically? What's funny is, personally I don't see myself as successful at all, but when people ask me about stuff I realize I've done okay. And that's the only time I kind of go oh, actually I've done all right, but I really never feel I've done enough. You know, some people can sleep at night. I can sleep at night, I don't have anything on my conscience, but I do feel like, have I done enough, which is a problem I have. How have I been so successful?

Speaker 3:

I've just not just wanted it, I've just tried to accrue the right skills, and I think there's quite a few threads with music. First of all, there are thousands of drummers who can play better than me, and when I say play better, they can play faster, they can read better, they can do more stuff, but fortunately for me, many of them are terrible communicators. So there's this phrase in music that could apply to any technical skill right, which is great player, crap, musician. I never wanted to be that. I never wanted to be someone who could play all this amazing stuff but just not understand the musical environment around me. And I think it's the same business. If you've got technical understanding of something. Your job isn't to beat someone with a stick over it. You have to try to work out when the appropriate time is to bring a new idea in Same music. You know, shall I play a new thing here, or shall I just keep it steady and support the idea that's being played? Or is it now time to insert some level of here's a new color, here's a new symbol that you're going to hear for the first time in this song, or here's a new idea, while still trying to give people space and respect, and I think there's a lot of stuff that's non-verbal.

Speaker 3:

Obviously that goes on with music, where you're always making a choice with an instrument like the drums, because the drums can just overpower everything if you want them to, and you can be a real bully on the drums pretty easily in a way that you can't be on second violin, you can ruin it or you can be someone who is at the back and just supports whatever else is going on. And the person who I always call out for this, because he really helped me understand the value that was bringing from music into business, was a guy called Julian Treasure. Julian Treasure has done like five things about through his sixth or seventh TED talk. He's done loads of work about listening and speaking, but he also used to be in a band as a drummer, so his book how To Be Heard is incredible, and he talks about listening positions. As in, what listening position are you speaking into at the moment?

Speaker 3:

Now, with this podcast, I don't know what listening position I'm speaking into because your listeners I don't know what listening position I'm speaking into because your listeners I don't know who they are, but I'm going to assume because I'm not very famous a lot of them are thinking who the hell is this guy? What does he know, what does he want? And that was just fine, because I'm the same and my thing is to maybe open their listening position from defensive or just to be helpful. But first of all, you have to open someone's listening. You have to make sure, as a musician or as a somebody who speaks, or as a business coach or whatever it is you're doing, getting yourself into a position where people want to hear what you have to say well, it is interesting because, as you were talking about, I felt I could settle back into a listening position.

Speaker 2:

So there's something around the storytelling that you do. But we met when you were doing a podcast coaching masterclass, yeah, and I asked you the question and you did just talk about it there from Julian Treasure's point of view, who I believe is a national treasure. I said to you you've gone from the drummer in the band to being the podcast front man and you said straight away no, it's just equally as important to support. Do you still stand by that and is that I hate speaking gigs.

Speaker 3:

I hate them, but I don't. It's not what I want. I've been on bigger stages the most, but I've always been at the back of them, so I'm not really interested in attention. But I'm really interested in supporting great performers, and a certain amount of that means that I have to be a great performer. But being a great member of a supporting cast is very different to being the star of the show, and so I think that's what makes me a good coach and a good consultant that I can help the people that hire me to perform in the exact moments they matter.

Speaker 2:

And everything you do when you talk about audio is about it can be profitable for your brand. This is key for business owners, who need someone like you who's keen to play a role. How do they make their brands profitable from being a podcast?

Speaker 3:

When I think about brands, I think about Seth Godin's work, and when he talks about being remarkable and he tells us stories about what, I'll tell you what a brand is. A brand is where you walk down the street and you see tattoos of Harley on someone's arm. They literally brand themselves. Okay, so you've got that. And then you've got people talking about my brand and they've got a TikTok account. They're so different, aren't they? So the way that a podcast helps the majority of my clients is, first of all, I tell you who my tend to be expert technicians. They are lawyers, they're oncologists, they are therapists they're like the professions and many of them are shy. Many of them don't have the desire to become famous or a name beyond being recognized as an absolute expert in their industry. Frankly, they don't care about likes and shares, because that's not going to really build their business. It's just going to get them the wrong sort of attention. So what sort of attention do you want?

Speaker 3:

Now, with podcasting? As you know, because you're literally doing the book that I wrote at the moment is you're having a meaningful conversation with somebody and you're putting them on stage in a really nice way and you're asking them questions about themselves and, as we know, everyone's favorite subject, whether they're showing or not, is themselves. And if you can start to speak with people and think about your marketing as getting in with people rather than getting yourself out there, then if you're going to grow a business, then being in with people who are in your target market is a pretty good way of doing it. But it's not only that. So using a podcast and my book is called Narrow Podcasting using a podcast in that narrow way is about using it to create an invite, in the same way that you would go and offer to buy somebody a drink at the bar. You've met someone. They seem cool. Oh, can I buy you a drink the bar? You've met someone they seem cool. Oh, can I buy you a drink? Oh, that'd be great. Thanks very much. You're not asking them too much. But what's it leading with? It's leading with a gift, and if you do a good job as a podcast interviewer, then I'm going to say there's this guy, david, who interviewed me on a podcast. I'm really happy to share this thing and that's great for you, of course, but maybe I don't have a massive following or whatever, but what I do have is I have a really strong network.

Speaker 3:

So your job as a podcaster if you're in business and you're trying to grow your business rather than your personal brand or any other kind of like attention that doesn't lead to anything other than a time suck that keeps you scrolling on your phone and hoping for one more like or whatever. That's not business, is it? So if you've got a podcast that's building relationships, then your guests will do your marketing for you, and it's not normally with my clients, the kind of mass marketing needed by Nike or Adidas or Harley or Sainsbury's. It only needs to be a few people, and so your job as a podcaster who's got a business to grow is all about guest selection and quality invites. Would you like to be on the Success Nuggets podcast, where I talk about X for listeners who are interested in Y? Yeah, I'd love to do that. Thank you so much for the invitation. Where do I have to go? Oh, we can do it on Zoom. Just do it from home. It only takes an hour or less, you know, or half an hour. Would really appreciate the investment of your time and coming on and, don't worry, I'll make sure it's edited properly. So every time you are an almond cough, that'll get taken out and I'll give it to you so you can share it with your network and let them know.

Speaker 3:

And the kind of people that I work with, those kinds of guests they don't tend to scream and shout about their achievements on linkedin or on facebook or what have you to their marketing is like a gross thing. But if they've been a guest on something, then they feel a sense of duty to say, oh, I've been on this thing and they will share it. So guest selection is really important. And who are your guests? Well, your guests are a number of people, so they could be your ideal client, which I think is cool.

Speaker 3:

But you really must make sure you're not pitching the shit out of them when you get them on, because that's gross. They could be your ideal client. They definitely should be your existing client, because retention is awesome and there's nothing like going through a case study of where were you, where are you now? What is the experience of going through the thing that we worked on together? That's incredible marketing material for you and that's incredible retention for you when a client is forced in the nicest possible way to articulate the experience they've had.

Speaker 3:

So clients and past clients and possible clients, all good, but the other people that you should be approaching are cool people with interesting stories who happen to hang around your target market. So we just got on the call before this recording and I listened to what you're up to and the particular target market you served and I told you a story that is completely random about a guy in the Middle East who works in the same target market you're serving at the moment, because it's just a bizarre story, but it's the only story I've got about that market and I might be able to connect you. I might not, I don't know, but I'm here to serve because you're hosting me on your platform and so powerful referrers are people and, by the way, if you're not sure if someone's a powerful referrer, you don't know them in the way that you and I have known each other on and off over the last few years. Just go to someone's LinkedIn and look at who they're connected to, because if you message them and say, hey, I who they're connected to.

Speaker 3:

Because if you message them and say, hey, I notice you're connected to such and such, can I have an intro? They're going to tell you to go away and stop being so rude, or probably not reply, but if you have a conversation that you can have with them, you're in a position you'll have opened their listening position to a point where they'll say you asked some great questions and I was really glad I could tell my story. Thank you, david, david, for letting me do that. And you get to say I notice you're connected to so-and-so. Would you be open to making that network and I think there'd be a great guest on the podcast right? You get to ask that question only because you've bought them a virtual drink or had a virtual meal with them, which is in this case a podcast episode so that there's that the episode, so that there's that.

Speaker 3:

the other way that I've found. The largest organization I've worked with to date has an annual revenue of about 80 million dollars, so they are a big business, but they're a decent sized business with a team across 12 or 13 locations. The thing that a podcast has helped them do has retained the team and keep the team, because as soon as you're global, as soon as you're or national or wherever leadership has a problem communicating with everyone in every single office around the country of the world. So that's been a great way to keep a personal tone for a larger size business. And the other thing that it's done is it's been an incredible recruitment tool because when those people are hiring and I had a situation with a client who told me they were willing to spend 150 grand on finding the right person for a role and they would do that often because that's the cost of hiring and it would take them sometimes six months A podcast was part of an effort that sped that up to about a month and reduced the cost to about 20 grand. So they're the ways that my clients use podcasting and some of them get popular and some of them get loads of listeners, but actually your business is the sponsor of your podcast. You don't need to go and look for a podcast sponsorship deal. You don't need to worry about how many listeners you've got.

Speaker 3:

If you already have a business, if you already have a core skill and a very clear target market, you can help you use it as a networking tool. You can help you use it as a networking tool and going all in. You know, as soon as you're trying to spread yourself over everything, you know, every single target market in the world or whatever it is you might be doing, it's really hard to articulate why anyone would care. And I saw something really recently that was a super, super, super polished. I think it was like a sales thing you know, getting better at selling or whatever something like that but there was no clear target market. Well, who's the sales for? She said well, it's for everyone. Well, no one identifies as everyone. So, as much as there's no question that you could help people from 20 million different industries, if you commit to choosing one and then building a habit around what I'm only going to target dentists for three months, or whoever car mechanics or plumbers or fitness coaches, whoever you're going to target with, the result you get is frightening to people. Maybe let's say lawyers, right, lawyers can serve a ton of different people, but we know that the best lawyers in the business are known to be the divorce lawyers or the business lawyers. So that's something. So just commit to something for at least three months.

Speaker 3:

I know that I spent the last year and a bit mainly working in the space industry, which is hilarious to me because I know nothing about space, but I went all in and before that I worked in cancer and I worked with a lot of cancer organizations one particular cancer organization for a long time and got to know tons about oncology through the way of not only think technical. I couldn't save anyone's life and I don't know how to treat someone with cancer, but I do know how to talk to them better and talk to the people around them who have had cancer, and that's the work that I was doing with content, not just podcasts, but whole messaging across. The complete rebrand of an organization was about how do you speak about this stuff?

Speaker 2:

that's lovely, mate, and I know you as a very half-centered person as well. So, finally, what is your one golden nugget?

Speaker 3:

my one golden nugget is to not consume too much content on the internet and actually do some work and try things.

Speaker 2:

I can't endorse it enough. Where can the guys follow you and find out more about Narrow Podcast?

Speaker 3:

in your book as well. For business stuff, I'm on LinkedIn, so you can find me, toby Goodman, on LinkedIn, or you can find a ton of stuff my very amazing keynote, which features a plastic duck. I took a plastic duck all the way to vegas and la and did this keynote around the place a few times called get clients with your podcast, and that's over at narrowpodcastingcom toby.

Speaker 2:

thank you again, mate, for tuning in. Next time, join david and his incredible guests next time on the Success Nuggets podcast, and to find out more, visit one golden nuggetcom.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening.