The Success Nuggets #63 - Trevor Folley and why performance starts with trust

The strange thing about trust is that we only really notice it when it's missing.
A late arrival.
 A broken promise.
 A hidden agenda.
 Suddenly the whole room feels different.
 
Maybe trust isn't a soft skill at all.
 Maybe it's the invisible infrastructure holding everything else up.
 
Maybe trust isn't something we give.
Maybe it's something we build.
One honest conversation, one kept promise, one reliable action at a time.
A fascinating conversation with Trevor Folley on The Success Nuggets Podcast.

What do you think — is trust given, earned, or built?
@Trevor Folley

With thanks to Maxwell Preece for editing and support

Transcript

Why Trust Changes Everything

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Update updates a wonderful view of the wonderful people from the world. Get ready to dive into a world of insights inspiration. With the founder of the digital light bulb and your host, David Abel.

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Same agenda, same faces, but the air feels different. Decisions land faster. People tell the truth without flinching. That invisible lift, that is trust. Today's guest has mapped out how to create it on purpose. Trevor Foley is a speaker, trainer, and coach who's led national action research across 130 schools, advised for the Department for Education, and now coaches dozens of head teachers and senior leaders one-to-one. He believes strategy and talented are wasted without trust, and I'm with him on that. Trevor, it's great to have you on. Fantastic to meet you, David. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Trevor, we're going to break

The Five Pillars Defined

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down the five pillars of trust. Give us a quick overview of what those first five pillars are, please. What I found was that whenever people were talking about trust, when I was talking to leaders or I was talking to organizations, they all knew that trust was really important. They all had an intuitive sense that it was foundational for, you know, them reaching their potential. But when I asked them about what they felt trust was, it got a bit vague. It got, well, you know, it's people telling the truth or, you know, me being able to rely on someone or knowing someone's got your back, all that sort of stuff. So I really started to dig in to try and deconstruct what's behind all of this. And I found fundamentally there were five aspects of trust. And if you can capture all of these, it really kind of takes the roof off potential of any collaborative kind of endeavor or any organizational kind of ambitions. These are going to sound really obvious to the all listeners, but let's go through them. The first one is honesty. This is like the ground floor. This is, I trust that people are telling me the truth. You'd think that that would just be a given, but unfortunately it isn't always the case. The second one is intentionality. If I'm in a room and I'm working with other people and I can look all in the eye and say, you're here for the right reasons. Fundamentally, you're here to support what we're trying to achieve. It changes the way that we talk together. It changes our confidence in each other with how we're going to do that. The third one, objectivity. We are awful at judging how objective we are. And we bring all our little biases and agendas, our unconscious heuristics into the situation. Well, if we can trust that someone is going to, if they're going to be able to view things in an open-minded way, if they're going to be consistent with the way they approach it, if they're prepared to take themselves out of the situation, out of their personal perspective and say, I can see this from the outside and distance, then that enables us to have a more powerful conversation. The fourth one is, I suppose it's the gold standard, integrity. What about when no one's looking? Can I be trusted that even if there isn't someone who's um watching me, I'll still abandon live up to the values that I profess to be important to me? And the fifth one is reliability. Um, I think reliability is possibly the most important. Because out of all of those, it's the only one you can see. Will this person do what they say they're gonna do? When we've left this meeting, will everybody do what's being agreed? Will they deliver what they promise? You don't know whether someone's telling the truth all the time. You can speculate, you don't always know their intentions. Are they being objective or is it subjectivity, kind of dressed up as it? Well, if it's integrity, you're not even there. Reliability is your evidence that someone is trustworthy. Capture those five and you capture trust.

What Trust Feels Like In A Room

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Walk into a meeting room, and it's a meeting room of ten people, and there's an energy in the room. Maybe somebody untrustworthy has walked in. That energy fills the room. There's the the fake hellos, what's gonna come out of this person? It feels different. It feels different when you've got a room where you don't entirely feel confident that everyone's trustworthy. In the way that people behave towards each other, that that shifts. There's sometimes some non-verbal indicators. People are a bit more tense sometimes, or their body language is different, the tone of voice is different. You've got a room full of people that really trust each other. There's a gentleness in the room sometimes, that sense of purpose. Even the rhythm of the way that people are interacting changes. So yeah, it's difficult, but most people know what it feels like. When did you store start to feel first realize strategy wasn't enough

Strategy Fails Without Trust

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and trust could be a compounding? Well, you you mentioned earlier that I was really fortunate to be involved in a whole series of national action research projects, which were looking at how families of schools worked together to get the best outcomes for young people as they moved through the different stages in their education. And how do you do this in a way that's going to be coherence is going to be purposeful? Um, and they all had fantastic strategies. You know, there were some brilliant plans put together. But what we noticed was that those that had this inbuilt sense of trust would almost certainly be more successful. But crucially, they would go on to build on that success. So you'd go back two years later, three years later, and you see the success was still there. In fact, it was strengthening. Where it was, where it was just based around, you know, we've got a strategy, we've got a plan, it would sometimes fragment or erode, or, or even worse, people would feel that they were putting energy into something that wasn't delivering. And then, you know, it all just really fell apart. So I became fascinated with by that. Best teams I've worked in, they'll be accountable to each other, no matter their age type or numeration. They're just in it for the team. If you've got, when you think about kind of a sense of responsibility or a sense of accountability, I thought what you need is you need a shared outcome that you can be accountable for, you can be responsible for moving towards. And that's often you get a sense of buy-in. If you've got a group of people working together, part of that accountability is to enable other people to do what they need to do to contribute to that collective endeavor. And that's where trust comes in. In terms of holding yourself accountable, I think one of the most important aspects is to realize that it can't be done without you. The full potential of what you're trying to achieve can't be done without trust. Um and it's a bit like, you know, kind of those people that feel it doesn't matter if I throw a few kind of sweet wrappers out of the window, or it doesn't really matter if I don't stick to the rules. All of that, I think, is partly because there's a sense that it won't make a difference. And if there's a message that I hope to get out today is it really does make a difference. The gap between something being done with people that really have everything they do embedded in mutual trust is huge steps away from even just having a small portion of the collaboration that that isn't trustworthy or isn't behaving as if they can rely on other people. So accountability starts with a uh a recognition that it's essential. It's not an optional extra. If we were to take someone like me, you know, revenue is is often the objective always give them. What's a really helpful way to explain trust to a numbers-first leader? Oh gosh. But I suppose the thing

Accountability And Shared Outcomes

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about a numbers-based leader is that that's where they're getting their sense of, you know, more information is from the data. I've got nothing, nothing against that at all. It's objective, hopefully, depending on how you uh collect it. Um, and it's gonna inform the strategy, and that's all really important. Uh the essentiality of trust starts with if you're gonna get to that data, if you're gonna get to the results that you want, then you've got to think, well, that's gonna need high performance from all the individuals within it. And if you want high performance that's gonna lead to that data, then you need a sense of agency throughout all of those people. They need to be able to move knowing that they can make a difference so that they can commit themselves to that performance to get the outcomes. And that's built on confidence, confidence in yourself, confidence in other people. And that is based on trust. Whether you're whether you're trusting yourself, you might have been in a situation where you're going into a new environment. Maybe there are different challenges that you don't quite know. But having that sense that I trust that I'll be able to respond in a way that will be at least bringing the best of myself to it changes the way that you enter that. So having a trust in yourself, but then this trust in the situation. Uh most people won't get on a plane unless they trust the play is going to take off. The trust in other people is the bit that makes collaborations work. So if you have that trust, it gives people confidence to commit. That means that people have a sense of agency. If I commit and everyone else commits, then we can make a real difference. So all of that high performance is made possible. So I suppose I would say to that person, if you want the data, then you're going to need the trust. What about if every project we ever did was a poison chalice? We buy a new project for you, and everyone says, oh, he's got the hang grenades. Even though I've been talking for five years around, I don't want to do this project.

Winning Over Numbers-First Leaders

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If someone doesn't want to do a project, then it goes back to intentionality, doesn't it? It goes back to do I trust that the intentions behind this project are valuable and do I trust that I'll be able to commit to it with a positive intention coming out of it. Obviously, if you're going into, if you're asking anyone to be motivated to contribute to something, they need two beliefs. The first belief is that it's worthwhile. So, you know, one of the things that I try to share is that if you want to build a culture of trust, be really explicit about your intentions, talk about what you're trying to achieve, frame it in terms of something that the people that you want to involve will value. So first belief is that this is going to be worthwhile. The second belief that's absolutely necessary is there's a good chance it will be successful. Because why would I commit myself to this, no matter how worthwhile it is, if I think it's all but a fall flash on its face? So that comes down to the reliability bit of it. If people have, if they have an experience of issues, well, sure they don't, but if they have an experience of you that every time you ask them to do something, you know, there's a good chance that it'll fizzle out or it won't deliver. Then uh even these wonderfully worthwhile projects that you're bringing forward, after a while, I'm not gonna trust that this is going to deliver. So why would I put myself forward and commit to it? If someone's not interested, then think, okay, what belief do they need to trust in in order to be committed? Should we just give people a damn good listening to you? I love that front is there.

Making Honesty Safe

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First of the building blocks, honesty is the best problem. How do we make it safe to tell the truth without creating a lame culture? You've put your finger on it then. If you want someone to tell the truth, you want to make it easy for them to do so. Make it safe for them to do so. In aviation, there's there's, you know, no one's going to be blamed for mentioning the fact that they're not very good at something. You know, kind of say, right, we need to be kind of doing this thing that's going to keep the plane in the sky. And you say, well, actually, I'm not 100% confident that I've got the skills. No one's going to do anything that would dis discourage someone for saying that. That honesty is so important. Lies depend on it. If I make a mistake and it's about keeping people safe, then it's absolutely vital that it's a culture where I feel safe to do it. So, I mean, in aviation, in those situations, I think, if I remember correctly, there are any, there are only two circumstances that someone will be admonished for, you know, kind of their behaviors in terms of the blame thing. One is be deliberately malicious behavior, so if you do something deliberately, or being reckless, so not caring enough to give it due attention. But if you told the truth, then that's an opportunity to learn. If you if you've shared a weakness, then that's an opportunity to grow. The idea of having a uh a context where people feel that people value my honesty more than my, you know, perfection. I don't have to be perfect, but I do have to be honest. Don't we tell ourselves at least 10 lies a day? I I read a research paper that suggested it was five between five and ten. I would imagine that some are fewer and uh some are many more than that. Yeah, but but there does seem it's too easy to, it's so tempting just to say a little falsehood, a little white lie, or or exaggerate just by 20%, or or frame it in a distorting way, because it kind of fits our agenda. But people know often they don't know the first time. I was saying to my kids, I said, as far as telling the truth is concerned, no one will know in a particular situation whether you're lying or not. But it won't be very long before they know you're a liar, and every one of us will have situations where we know someone, you know, whatever they say has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Really close-knit people that you really trust. You don't need to exaggerate, you don't need to distort the framing, you don't need to kind of say a little fib because people trust you and you can trust them. And if you say it, they know that the only reason for you to say it is for their benefit or for a shared benefit. So after a while, you get a reputation for being someone that that says it how it is, but says it with respect, says it with sensitivity. There are messages that you're sending while you're telling the truth. How you tell the truth is important as well. It never ceases to amaze me that you can be with a group of people. Uh actually I remember when I was a teacher, there was that this was a regular thing. I used to sit in my classroom at lunchtime, and sometimes students would come and they'd sit around. And you'd look at a group of them and they'd be nattering, gossiping, I suppose you say, about someone that wasn't there, someone else in the year group, someone else in their friendship group. And it wasn't always very nice. And sometimes it was a little bit sectative, you know, kind of exaggerating things for entertainment rather than honesty. So they'd do that, and they'd all be feeling really good about it, and come rather be great, and then one would leave. And then almost immediately they'd start talking about that person. And I think you must, in that group, all know that this what this is what happens when you are not there. There are clues everywhere about people's honesty, about their integrity, about their willingness to to be there for you and the to give you reason to trust them. And if we take that on board, then you build a reputation. Whether that's your organization, whether it's you as an individual, having that reputation is just gold as now. I mean, it's and if you if you if you have that where you believe that of somebody else, then it's a prize worth worth finding, worth protecting. Intentionality is is one that got me sitting up straight.

Intentions That People Can Believe

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Some people's intentions come through all the time. They just want you for money, for time, or the their own benefit. And there is there are three things that that tend to, I think, uh damage. Well, there are kind of blockers, attitudinal blockers to being able to create a trusting environment. Um one is cynicism. Well, you know, everyone else is lying, so why shouldn't I? Uh one is complacency. It doesn't really matter. You know, a little bit of a lie here, a little bit of exaggeration there, not quite being reliable at that particular point, you know, it doesn't really matter. And the other one is kind of short-termism. But that that person that you're talking about there, yeah, they'll they'll probably get what they what they want in terms of you know benefit for themselves to begin with. But after a while, you know, people know. There was there's a there's a frame story, I think Maury Southern tells this story actually about a um a car salesman in Ohio, and it's the best possible figures ever. You know, it's like, you know, year on year he outperforms everybody else in the state affected. And he gets interviewed by a local uh news agency, and they say, What's the secret? Now, how do you do this year on year on year? And he says that, well, most salesmen or salespeople, when someone comes in to buy a uh buy a car, ask themselves this question. They say, How am I going to ensure this person buys a car from me today? And he said, Yeah, that's that makes sense, doesn't it? But I ask a slightly different question. I ask, how am I going to ensure that this person buys the car after the one they buy today from me? So if they come in and they say one a particular car, it'll point out the various options, but he'll point out the flaws in some of them as well. If there's a more expensive version, but another one would actually suit their purpose, he'll guide them towards it. Or say, now this one, you know, it'll save you five grand and it'll actually suit your purposes as well. Now that person has customers for life. So when it comes to intentions, when it comes to is it worth it, is it worth actually being honest and genuinely want to what's best best for the person in front of you? In the short term, maybe not. If you're, you know, I don't know, if you if you're willing to basically break relationships after one encounter and get what you can and then scuttle off to the next one, yeah, fine. If you want to be that sort of person, maybe you can do that. I don't know. But if you've got any situation where you want to grow a relationship, where you want to continue to be successful and feel good about it, let's not, let's not put this, you know, kind of out of the picture. All of this stuff about trust, it feels good too. So if you've got a situation where you you actually want to be successful, grow your own potential and that of other people, and feel good about yourself, then be open about wanting to support other people and it will come back to you. So, yeah, intentions are important. That's that's a really bad example of that short-term thinking. And if they're like it with you, they're like it with others. Oh, absolutely. And people have got really long memories. There was uh back in 2000, there was uh some people might remember this thing, there were there was loads of tax on fuel, and farms for action started to blockade oil refineries. Does this ring a bell? I mean, everyone was queuing for something. Huge queues, and there were people kind of there'd be a whisper that there was petrol somewhere down the road, and then you join the back of the queue, watching your petrol gauge slowly go down. It was a privately owned garage that and the garage owner got some petrol and thought, ah, I'll make a killing on this. So quadrupled the price of this petrol. Well, people had to kill it, they they needed the petrol. And he made, uh, I think the report said that he made like two weeks' profit in 24 hours, easy money, isn't that? Three months time he was out of business. No one would go back. Yeah, they needed to, but it broken your kind of implicit contract, which was this community, a community, looks out through the intentions of other people, plays fairly, doesn't exploit others. So, yeah, I I think there really is there's a moral side to this, there's a feel good about your side, but there's also just a practical side to this, you know. Trust breeds trust, and trust breeds potential. The retention is a sad thing, and I'm believing Ken recently there was a water shortage, be rider than 17 pounds for a bowl. That exact same ugly position has reared his head again, where business owners think short term. Objectivity.

Objectivity And Better Decisions

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Now, this is a hard one in the boardroom, I think, because my idea is the best. I'm right, you're wrong. Well, it might be done. I'm sure lots of your ideas are the best. But the challenge is how do you numb? Because if you've just thought your perspective, if you are just looking down that way, it might be internally coherent. So your argument might be really rock solid with all the parameters and the premises and the propositions, then you're putting all into that and you say, well, it's rock solid, isn't it? You still only have your perspective. So if you want to have, if you really want to get the best answers out of a conversation, you've got to be willing to be able to let other perspectives in. And, you know, if someone challenges you with something, ask yourself the question: under what circumstances would they be right? Force yourself out of it. Force yourself to be, if it wasn't me holding this position, but someone that was completely neutral, what might they notice that I missed? And we are awful at judging, assessing our own objectivity. So in the boardroom, it requires people to recognize their own limitations in terms of this. And to recognize that if everyone's gonna come with their position, then why have a meeting at all? You know, just write down your arguments, dial it in, and then, you know, one can be selected. The whole point of having a board meeting or any sort of generative discussion is to come up with something even better. And that's gonna, that's gonna require people to bring uh bring objectivity in the form of uh of being rational, of being open-minded, or being consistent with the way that they applied things, with recognizing that that they're going to bring unconscious biases into it. It was uh John Meals, political philosopher, absolute Europe, American political philosopher, and and he proposed that the only way that you could design a fair society is by designing it before anybody knew who they were within that society. So you could be a billionaire or you could be homeless. Now imagine that you didn't know which you were going to be. That would affect what you suddenly thought was fair, or where you thought that kind of resources should be applied or how rulers should be decided or selected. So when it comes to people in the boardroom, if you want the best answers, then you have to do the best exploratory talk you've got to work at your objectivity. So what if we were to design a society and we said if someone is Homeless, then these are the steps we would put. Well, well, you you you designed not knowing whether that was going to be you. But if you want to make a decision on that is going to be best objectively, you've got to take that that kind of implicit kind of personal benefit out of it. And sometimes we don't see it. Often we'll believe what we want to believe. Talking of things

Integrity When No One Watches

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we don't see. Integrity. What do people say about you when you're not there? Well what do you want them to say about you when even more importantly, what would you want them to say about you if they could see you even when there's no people around? This is like the gold standard, isn't it? Is this person trustworthy? Does this person live up to the values that they profess even when no one's looking? And people put a huge amount of value on it. I mean, more so than if if you if your clock's doing something kind, and the person who catches you believes that there was no other motivation other than being kind because no one was watching, we didn't get any cuddles for age, then that is hugely valuable. And if you've ever had that situation when you suddenly realize that someone is doing something just because they believe it's morally right, that raises your sense of them, and you can generalize that to all sorts of situations. But it's also the other way around. Do you remember? Well, there was that there was uh a clip that I don't know if it was a TikTok clip or an Instagram, but it was a woman putting a cat into a weebie. Yeah, I remember that one. Uh, and and you know, she presumably didn't think that she was being viewed. Um and she ended up getting like death threats and stuff. Now, I I'm not suggesting that putting a cat in the bin is an okay thing to do. She didn't deserve to die. But the fact that people thought this is this is this is a kind of a window into who you are, your character, is because she didn't believe anyone was looking. Since I've got to spend all my time with me, I might as well be someone I like. Even better, you know, I'm trying to someone that you admire, you know, even better that if you can do that. So it's difficult with the integrity one when it comes on this because people can say, but yeah, no one will know. Well, you're you'll know. And at some point, people will get a sense of your integrity. Um, and that's playing the long game. That's the prisonist dilemma for real, played out through life. That's it, that's it. I want to flip that one just for a second. Good friend of mine, James Cowerdale, the co-owner of Ansun's Clothing Trading. He went somewhere where actually they flipped him and they said, What would it be like if four of your friends came into the same room as you and gave you the gold? Just taught you all the good things about you. Yeah. And so, you know, I don't think we know what our own integrity

Coaching Challenge Without Threat

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is sometimes. There are some people that find it very easy to notice their strengths and their qualities, and sometimes they might even exaggerate them for themselves. There's something really powerful about getting that genuine outside view of yourself. And there are people out there that absolutely need to be told all their qualities, even to the extent of pointing out how kind they are to other people, and then, you know, maybe reminding them that they can be kind to themselves as well. But if you're going to get that sort of feedback or input, how much more powerful is it if you trust that person? If you trust that that person, their only reason for doing it is because they genuinely care and they genuinely want what's best for you. They don't want anything back through you. So yeah, I like that. The idea that if people came in and they said to you, you know, this is this is something that you would value knowing about yourself, then you can trust me that I'm going to give it to you straight. A coach, I'm an executive coach, I well, with leaders. And after the very first session that I had with someone, I will say, you know, as I said at the beginning, part of my job is to uh is to challenge you. You know, otherwise it could be a conversation you have down the pub with a friend or over a cup of coffee with uh a colleague, but I'm offering something else. And I think of it a bit like gears on a bike. So uh if I challenge you too hard, then it'll be like going uphill in top gear and you can stall. But if I don't challenge you at all, it's like, you know, if you had that feeling you'd pedal like crazy, not getting it. And so at the end of the conversation, I say, higher gear, lower gear, well, you know, in terms of challenge, where was I today? What would be valuable to you? Well, I would say 80 to 90% of the time they say, up the gear. Up the gear. I want more challenge. It's so valuable to be able to be challenged without any sense of threat, with unconditional regard. And the only agenda I have is to create a space where you can bring the best out of your own thinking. And yeah, I think the people, where there's trust, there's there's a transparency, where people start actually to see feedback as a discovery, almost as a gift when people say, Well, I noticed this. This might be room for area that you might want to explore improving, and they say thank you to you. Because it's not the value in it, isn't whether you're the best you could, you know, could ever be, whatever. It's about do you have the quality that will lean into the process of improvement? And for that, you need to trust yourself, you need to trust your situation, and of course, you need to trust the people that you're with. So,

Reliability As The Trust Proof

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yeah, I like that the idea of people coming in and telling you your strengths. I'm so inspired by that. And then reliability. Oh, you said earlier this is the one that's not invisible. It's always been a step for your expedition, late. They don't understand the project's work. How do you say it? In business and in life. Well, like you know when someone just turns up ten minutes late to every meeting, can get in the rooms fine because they're they're, you know, always ten minutes late. Yep. There are so many ways that you can erode trust by by eroding people's sense of your reliability. Can I catch you five minutes and it ends up as 20 minutes? I actually call reliability the Kaplunk aspect of trust. Some of your viewers may remember Kapunk. It's like a tower full of marbles. In what's holding the marbles up are loads of little kind of plastic cocktail sticks around it. And the idea of the game is that you have to take a stick out without the marbles falling. And normally you get one or two fall and stuff like that. And it's the person with the fewest marbles that wins. There's always one cocktail stick. And if you pull it out, they all go, they rattle down to the bottom. That's reliability. This is the one that if you if you take away reliability, everything else crumbles. If I can't rely on you to on these often quite simple things, can I rely on you to do what you say you're going to do? Can I match your promise to your performance, I suppose, in terms of that sense? If I can't, even on little bits of a basis, why should I believe you're telling me the truth? Why should I trust in your intentions? You know, why, why should I think that, or you're taking the outside view rather than just being subjective? I certainly wouldn't trust you when you're not looking, because you I can't trust you when I am looking. This is like the first slab, the kind of foundational slab you put down to build all your other trusts on. Like I think of it as like the trust heuristic. Because any any of your viewers that I've read Thinking Faster Slow by Daniel Kahneman, amazing book. But it one of the things that he and um Amos Toverski, who was his partner before Amos Toversky died, one of the things they identified was that people tend, if they're faced with a really complex question, to ask a simple one instead and use that answer as the way that they come to them. If I were to ask you, help me understand a trustworthy person, then as we've, you know, in radio kind of explored, there are lots of different facets to that, lots of different nuances to it. But if you were to ask the question, uh, has this person ever let me down? That's that's straightforward. I can get an answer straight away. Does this person always do what they say they're gonna do? I can get that really quickly. Trevor, you haven't let me down today.

Start With Yourself And Closing

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Just before we go, what is your one golden mugger for life? Start with yourself. Whether you want a better world, whether you want better relationships, whether you want to have a more successful company, more effective collaboration, start with yourself. Don't wait for other people. Be the one that gives other people the opportunity to live up to it as well. Now, I don't mean be gullible and be credulous. I mean that if you embody what you want from other people, you're more likely to receive it. And if you can trust yourself, if you engender that trust in other people by giving them a context which means that they can feel confident to behave in a trustworthy manner, then you'll massively increase your potential, your results will improve, your long-term security will go up. Start with yourself. Thank you, Trevor. Guys, listen to the show again and again is the ultimate playbook on trust. And trust built by performance. That's an absolute pleasure, baby. Thank you so much for really insightful questions how people have taken away.

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Join David and his incredible guests next time on the Success Nuggets podcast. And to find out more, visit oneGoldenNugget.com. Thank you for listening.